October 25, 2021 
 Monday 
 
 

Forum
Topic:
How to Approach Thin Veins & Cost

       

Page 1 | Page 2 | Page 3 | Page 4 | Page 5 | Page 6 | Page 7 | Page 8 | Page 9 | Page 10 | Page 11 | Page 12 | Page 13 | Page 14 | Page 15 | Page 16 | Page 17 | Page 18 | Page 19 | Page 20 | Page 21 | Page 22 | Page 23 | Page 24 | Page 25 | Page 26 ]

 By Mark Wolff

01/31/2009  1:19PM

This forum topic can achieve considerable depth, as FranSix seeks technological alternatives to conventional mining practice. As a new contributor with years working the conceptual side of how to eliminate environmental and labor risk concerns leveraging IT advances within narrow vein settings, it is possible to say there are solutions, many proprietary, that can be integrated now 'off the shelf' to achieve this end. Let's tackle the basic question first.

The ancient Egyptians used fire and water to heat and shatter ores, and recently a Canadian junior, Rocmec Mines, has been championing a variant of this thermal fragmentation approach in conventional mine settings. Good information at their website regarding this, yet they use diesel as fuel...not something that will fly in CA near water tables. Such means would tend to destroy specimen occurrences as at the 16 to 1, yet as an upside, ores removed by thermal methods are 'pre milled' to an extent in being shattered already, easier to liberate values from. As far back as the 1960's, Russian miners have employed microwaves to improve yields on certain refractory ores, and obviously lasers can make precise cuts in stone, too.

Heat is your answer, but where does the 'sweet spot' lie along the electromagnetic spectrum? What new safety concerns or regulatory exposures emerge from a given choice? One thing for certain...to install and manipulate remotely a gas torch or other lightweight heat emitter beats attempting to automate heavy equipment or drill assemblies, even as that approach has been demonstrated successfully in certain larger mining operations.

Remote 'green' mining is a holy grail to small, independent operators, yet anathema to those threatened by the notion of 'skilled' mining jobs being replaced by unskilled operators working a deposit from home or outside the portal. No where but in mining is the irony so readily apparent of advances in IT having failed to extend to production methods, as workers needlessly continue to die underground. New jobs need to be created now, and my business agenda is to offer up tangible solutions that circumnavigate regulatory concerns by design, TODAY.

My own demonstration project at mines in CA and CO with support from a major networking vendor and bank financing was derailed last summer as credit markets froze, still ready to go if any readers wish to pursue business discussions. Kudos to Mike and all at the 16-to-1 for the many arrows they have taken trying to keep alive our proud mining heritage; better to pioneer new methods elsewhere rather than attract additional regulatory scrutiny arrows within that production setting. Any effort to address and resolve safety/emissions concerns via innovation opens the door to investor attention a bit further, benefiting this moribund industry segment as it returns to visibility among financial players.

For further information, please contact mwolff@thegrid.net.
 By bluejay

01/30/2009  8:44AM

The Seabee Mine 125 kilometers northeast of La Ronge has been successfully producing gold from its narrow veins since 1991. You may want to access clauderesources.com under mining for further information.
 By FranSix

01/30/2009  6:57AM

Yes, they have been attempting to promote their mine plan for about two years with little response from the market. But the flip side of the coin is that no matter how good the drill results are, the market has not responded either. The technical reports available on the website are comprehensive, though there are few mining analysts making any statements about the company.
 By gfxgold

01/30/2009  6:11AM

FranSix, I had a gut feeling that you were going to say Canada or Alaska. So far, all I have seen is company hype that is just being repeated by other news sources. Maybe some of the other readers of the Forum would like to chime in on any of their research into this company and holdings. Company website is:
http://www.goldenbandresources.com/
 By FranSix

01/30/2009  4:07AM

I thank 16 to 1 associates for contributing to the discussion, its more than I could hope for. I wanted to sort out whether there was any credibility gap with the management of my gold mining company.

They recently took out a bulk sample on one of their deposits which grades far below their original very conservative estimate. Its a very legitimate effort, not a swindle, though it has had its problems. To my knowledge, the company does not engage in hedonic reporting.

The company does not exaggerate to my knowledge and used grade capping to reduce outliers from standard deviation.

There have been problems in the past with this area, and mines have gone out of business due to dilution of the ore. There was an addtional factor which I believe contributed, which was low recovery rates in the 90's. I am guessing that nobody has any experience dealing with narrow veins and do not appreciate the differences between bulk extraction methods and narrow vein methodology.

The stock market crash led me to be very concerned at the outlook for the foreseeable future, but I believe a higher gold price will impose an optimisation of methods.

The company I am invested in is Golden Band Resources (GBN.V), a Saskatchewan-based company which has been accumulating and consolidating property in the La Ronge gold belt, slowly inching its way towards production. This is one of the few gold junior explorers where the wheels did not come off the cart during the crash.

The deposits in this belt are gold porphyry intrusives where the low grade alterations are small,(5m. tonnes to 250m depth.) but the veins are comparatively wide when measured against other deposits of similar geology. Theoretically, I presume you could mine the veins alone without leaving open pits, there are also higher grade deposits with no alteration halo, so you would use underground mining.

There are also quartz carbonate intrusives as well, but I presume that this is some kind of formation very similar to the establishment of porphyritic intrusives, because the rock chemistry is similar. (no copper, low in sulphides, no mercury in the rock)

The mining history of the area is long, and shows the higher grade deposits run ~13 - 14 g/t. No long term mining effort has ever been established in the area, due to its remoteness and the swampy terrain, that and the fact that the last twenty years of cyclical gold prices led to the abandonment of mines which produced as many as 300k oz. (they have ~ 1m. measured & indicated compliant oz.)

Any effort to use IP surveys were thwarted in the past due to the proximity of iron formations, so they have to do it the hard way and drill relentlessly.
 By gfxgold

01/29/2009  7:15PM

Over the years, I have run into a few "Promoters." They talk about assays and tonnage while you have a drink in your hand and then they hit you with a cocktail napkin presentation. "If you employ 10 men, and you move 20 tons a day at one half ounce per ton (of course, their hand picked assays will show a much higher oz. per ton ratio) and you deduct for supplies, explosives and rail, you might make a couple of bucks and do it all again tomorrow." "However, if you took those same ten men, gave them bigger, up-to-date equipment and could move 250 tons..." Then as he gives you the pencil. "You do the math."
All you will see is the half million dollars a week (or more) in gold. The thing that they don't tell you is that there is only so much drillable ore exposed at any one time. you're moving more tonnage but, you're moving more waste rock and that will slow down the recovery of the gold that you would have gotten anyway, using the correct mining methods. Going small to start with, saves money and allows a longer exploration time. FranSix, just out of curiosity, what mining area or mine are you invested in?
 By Michael Miller

01/29/2009  4:11PM

When geologists or mining people get underground at the Sixteen to One, most are struck with admiration and interest because of the never ending changes in the vein and associated wall rock. Your mining intuitions have merit, at least your observations about how to mine. Here are a couple of my recollections.

In 1976-77, successful construction companies and individuals took an interest in gold. Why not? Mining resembles earth moving and these were some of the best at their trade. We would stand at a portal, a caved tunnel or venture down some of the exposed drifts. A common expression was about how they would develop the underground with modern large equipment. Speed up production. Move a lot of ground, etc. Gold filled their thoughts. Those who eventually gave it a try failed. The deposit determines how it should be exploited, not the other way around.

Before I took over management of the Sixteen to One, I financed and operated several other small vein mines. One summer a fellow stopped by and asked if he could spend the summer in his camper, dredge a little and help with our project. Yes. As he became more familiar with mining and milling he said something that helped all of us. He said, “This is not much different than moving peas (something he had done in his past). It’s just a different material. Really all we want to do is move material and move it the fastest, cheapest and safest way.” He was right. When the intellectual challenge of where to set up your drill is over, the next step is moving material.

The Sixteen to One leased the mine to Lucky Chance Mining, a company that was reorganized in bankruptcy. Its management was comprised of experienced miners; however the company failed. My opinion for the primary reason of its failure was ignoring what I just wrote, “The deposit determines how it should be exploited, not the other way around.”

We have a bright future ahead of us in the small vein mining. Over the past thirty years we have made many changes, talked about many ways to become faster and cheaper operators. We have embraced the technology of detection and have moved the process of detecting gold targets beyond the theory stage. We have changed the process of milling.

Small vein mining is a challenge. One of the biggest challenge is overcoming the prejudices within the mining and investment industry against it as a means to mine gold at a sizable profit. It’s just like moving peas.
 By FranSix

01/29/2009  5:58AM

Yes, exactly. I assumed that mining a narrow vein would be more labour intensive than bulk methods used in base metals, and that the machinery by comparison would be almost comically small compared to the larger effort. I was very surprised at the size of the locomotive in the video for example. (the video of the 16 to 1 mine can be found on video.google.com)

I would suppose a company developing a mine with little experience mining a relatively narrow vein gold deposit will employ larger bulk methods to extract tonnage, where the focus should be directly on the vein in question, rather than taking out as large an alteration as possible.

I am grateful for the response, as I have made an investment in a gold mining company and feel at odds with the development plan. A higher gold price overall could reasonably be expected to gloss over the bulk tonnage vs. labour intensive method.

Would anyone have direct knowledge of CNC (computer numerical control) robotic mining methods or the use of close range gravitometer instrumentation? Could an advance of technology in use in the auto sector be implemented in a mining scenario in a thin vein structure?
 By Michael Miller

01/28/2009  2:47PM

For your question below:

“Small” is a relative term, so I must reply generally. Let’s start with the definition of ore and assume the mineral is gold. The ore must contain gold of economic value that can be extracted profitably. This is key and necessary language: extracted profitably. So gold’s price is a factor. In our case gold is an established gemstone that brings a price greater than spot.

A vein is surrounded with wall rock: footwall or hanging wall are terms we use in Alleghany. The wall rock has no economic value; therefore it is waste. While the Sixteen to One veins pinch almost to nothing, they swell to over thirty feet. The average range is three to six feet. Depending on the size, a small vein miner usually produces waste in a process called dilution. Dilution will bring the overall tenor of value down. Sometimes separation of waste and ore at the face is possible. This will raise the ore’s value and decrease dilution so the actual ore processed may have a higher assay or recovery.

Milling must be incorporated into the economic formula. The miner must consider all expenses of mining, milling, selling and reclamation into his formula to decide whether he has ore to mine from his small vein. It is a difficult task, especially in a high-grade gold deposit like ours.

Again generally speaking, small vein mining is more labor intensive than large vein or disseminated gold deposits. Labor is usually the largest expense. Other specific situations may significantly affect the economic value: access to the mine, distance from the portal, type of equipment (diesel, electric or muscle only), experience of crew. While the rewards are less predictable in small vein mining, if you are lucky enough to own a deposit like the Sixteen to One, your rewards justify the risk.
 By FranSix

01/27/2009  7:15AM

I would like to have some feedback from the forum on a specific mining topic. That would be how to approach mining relatively thin high grade gold veins as opposed to drawing out greater bulks of development muck or open pit methods. How bad an idea is open pit mining when you clearly have high grade thin veins? Is it a colossal error to do so? Do you need special tools and methods rather than stoping and using heavy equipment?
 By Hans Kummerow

12/18/2008  8:37PM

That is good news, Mike, that Origsix does not owe any money to the banking sector. Thank you.
 By Michael Miller

12/18/2008  1:07PM

To answer Hans’ question in the last entry: origsix owes not a penny to any bank. Its debt is with private parties, most of who are friendly as well as supportive to its success. I thought I might have been alone in distrusting the stock market game. After reading Hans, Bluejay and Rockroby, my concerns are not signs of paranoia. The pit is probably much deeper that we can imagine.

When I was seeking shareholder proxies between 1976 and 1983, several times a shareholder would tell me, “Well, everyone should have a worthless gold certificate hanging on the wall.” It was said with a smile because each and every person I contacted during that proxy battle for control believed his or her Sixteen to One stock was a prize worth keeping. I heard some wonderful stories about the mine.

The only problems I see in holding certificates are knowing where you have them and taking them to a broker if you want to sell. Neither seems too difficult for the benefit gained.
 By Hans Kummerow

12/17/2008  10:34PM

First of all, I agree with bluejay's analysis of the state of Stock-Dealer's competence and morale.

As the old Romans used to say two thousand years ago: "Judge a man by what he does, not by what he says". Especially people like Bernard Madoff.

Maybe you should dismiss the plan to reenlist OSTO-stock for trading at a stock-exchange and save all the related expense along the line, Mike. Maintain an informal trading platform for shareholders on the company's website.

If company-websites would have existed 100 years ago, stock-exchanges would have never been needed and would not have been created at all. And if they disappear again, it may be a change for the better. The world doesn't need the Bernard Madoffs any more.

Is Origsix still carrying a loan from a bank that is secured by physical gold?
Although it is a sad decision to make, I would suggest to sell the amount of gold that is neccesary to cover all loans outstanding while the market is still strong.

It is not that I am worried about declining values of gold right now - I am worried about the recklessness of any potential future liquidators who might size Origsix assets and sell them for a piece of cake.

As long as Origsix owes money to the banking sector - and I don't care what specific banks are involved - the title to the loan may be transferred from one bank to another bank and in the end to some liquidator.

Eliminate that risk, Mike, if it still exists. And don't worry about selling too cheap - we can always go back and dig up some more gold as long as Origsix owns the mines.
 By bluejay

12/17/2008  9:31PM

First of all, I don't believe DTCC is a reputable organization. They can't even get sellers that fail to deliver sold securities(naked shorts) within 13 days and don't require a buy-in to replace shares that the seller won't produce that the buyer has already paid for. Otherwise, they perpetuate the on-going phantom sales scheme by lawbreakers which dilutes a company's share price.

Patrick Byrne of Overstock.com(OSTK_OTC) has been spearheading a reform movement in court for years in an attempt to protect shareholders rights. To get to the point, Overstock.com had 19,000,000 shares outstanding and according to buyers, they owned from 35,000,000 to 40,000,000 shares the last time I checked. Someone, unknown to the company, was manufacturing about the same amount of shares that the company originally issued without any serious protests coming from the NASDAQ or the DTCC. Do you know why? The more shares that trade, the better it was for business.

This is the sad state of affairs that law abiding investors find themselves in today. The naked shorts game is to pound down the share price of specific companies thus inflicting damage on shareholders. These crooks do not sell naked shorts in an up market. The only exception is that some bullion banks do this in a rising gold market as agents of the Treasury.

The bottom line with me is, if someone else is holding your assets your risk exposure is magnified by their potential incompetence. Why take the chance?

The day has come and gone where I feel comfortable knowing that the FDIC or the SIPC will bail out any incompetents for losses that they create with my trusted securities or funds on deposit with them.

The IRA's and ROTHS etc. are sterile stock holdings. You can't get your fingers on them ever! The shares of these plans are suppose to be segregated but you would have to hire an attorney to PROVE that their custody is totally safe. Who do we trust?

Just take a look at what just happened to Bernard Madoff Investment Securities. Their ponzi scheme was just revealed that cost investors $50 bullion. They kept several sets of books, had falsified documents and lied to regulators.

We live in times of shameful widespread corruption. Your valuables should be intrusted to yourself in a well fortified home safe.

Ever wonder what happened to all the small denomination gold pieces like the 1/10, 1/4 and 1/2 ounce gold coins that used to be offered at coin shops? They are mainly in home safes now waiting for whatever tomorrow brings.

Do not leave your securities with the broker, order them out as soon as you can.

Check out this article:

http://www.kitco.com/ind/schoon/dec152008.html
 By Hans Kummerow

12/17/2008  9:28PM

The experience of Rockroby is not uncommon these days. It is happening all around the globe and in large numbers. Large numbers of affected customers and large numbers of affected balances.

If a bank comes under serious pressure to maintain a certain core capital ratio against it's loans outstanding position it will first try to shore up it's core capital.

And if that doesn't work any more, outstanding loans will be called back. From banks and from individuals. Upon maturity or on sight. Whatever is available will be grabbed to reduce the pressure.

As they say over here in Europe: "Banks are handing out umbrellas as long as the sun is shining. And as soon as the first rain-drops appear, they are recollecting the umbrellas again."

There are still many umbrellas out there that have been handed out to financial SWAT teams called "Equity Funds". It is hard to recollect those umbrellas without driving the Dow Jones below the 4000 level.

But many Equity Funds are making the same experience as Rockroby right now - if that is any consolation at all.
 By Rockroby

12/17/2008  8:08PM

When this market crash happened I owed U.B.S Financial about $1,800.00 and they called in my marker giving me less then 24 hours to come up with the cash,so I told them to sell all my National Lampoon stock.It was not enough to cover the $1,800.00 so without asking me or even telling me they unloaded 3,000 shares of my OSTO stock for .05 cents,I had other stock they could have sold and am not sure why they did it but they did.I can not get it back for that even though the stock sits at .02 cents right now,will put in bid's for a higher amount's as soon as my Christmas bonus comes in,short on funds right now.
Thanks Mike for letting me hike down into Kanaka Creek over the Summer even though I could not do much with the other miners in their,will be sending a care package before Christmas & found some decent placer gold this year up around the Merced River,will be back up looking for gold as soon as my rush is over.
Wishing you all the best this holiday season.
Craig
 By Michael Miller

12/17/2008  1:56PM

THE FOLLOWING NOTICE WAS SENT TO ME TODAY FROM A SHAREHOLDER WHO IS ALSO A STOCK BROKER. What does this mean? My comments begin below the notice. Your thoughts are encouraged. Thanks Hans and Bluejay for your recent contributions.

"Beginning Jan. 1, the Depository Trust Company (DTC) will provide a Direct Registration System (DRS) statement in lieu of a physical certificate for all DRS-eligible and participating issues that request withdrawals-by-transfer (WTs). For such DRS-eligible and participating issues, DTC no longer will permit participants to request issuance of a certificate on the WTs instruction. The final date for certificate withdrawals-by-transfer is Dec. 30, no later than 3 p.m. CT.
For client protection and efficiency, the securities industry has been moving toward eliminating physical certificates. The DTC recently filed the proposed rule change with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
DRS is a book-entry system that enables investors to register their shares electronically with the issuing company or its transfer agents. Instead of a paper certificate, investors receive a statement of their holdings. In 2008, all of the major and regional exchanges in the United States mandated that DRS become a listing requirement for all issues.
An investor will still be able to request a physical certificate by taking the investor’s statement directly to the DRS agent for conversion to a certificate."

Have you ever wondered how the brokerage businesses back room handled the massive increase volume of transactions? My doubts about their abilities began years ago. A growing concern was they are not able to do it. The result is that while an individual client may have accurate records, transfer agents may not. I encouraged our shareholders to take physical ownership of the stock certificate for mutual protection.

Why would a public corporation be concerned? Naked shorts! Short selling has brought small market cap or modest volume trading companies much grief, probably some large ones as well. It is proven that selling a stock down is more rapid and easy than buying a stock up. There are rules about short selling or there were rules when I did some short selling shortly after graduating from UCSB in 1965. I always may a profit short selling and can’t say the same about my long positions.

Working with Original Sixteen to One Mine, Inc to get it approved for the Pacific Stock Exchange between 1987-89 and afterwards paying attention to its stock activity, I realized how the stock market works from the view of a corporate president with a substantial holding and long term interests. I also realized how traders could destroy a very good corporation. Today I may be the only corporate executive who hand signs each share certificate; however once shares trade in depositories, I lose touch with our owners and market activity.

In order to short stock the shorter was required to hand over the number of shares, which were borrowed from someone else who actually had the shares to sell. Do you believe that this requirement was actually performed? If so (and I do believe that for many transactions someone’s account was credited and someone’s was debited shares) what happens when the person whose shares were loaned to cover the short wants to sell his shares? Does the broker borrow from another shareholder? It has been my opinion for years that with such large volumes of trades, the there are mistakes and now we all know that no one is really watching.

I believe that the public should demand that public companies continue issuing certificates of ownership. Why? To prevent fraud or manipulation. America needs a stock market industry. But it must have a level playing field and the transparency Americans have sought for most of my life. The market resembles the casinos in Las Vegas more than a capitalist's tool.

Finally, as a director and president of a SEC reporting company, I will be the first to get the blame for a crashing stock price even if the present circumstances remain unchanged. I remember going to a two day gold seminar in New York as an invited guest by Donaldson Lufkin and Jenrette when the president of Barrack blasted the US stock exchanges and specifically related that traders could bring shareholders a loss that has nothing to do with the management or results of the company. I remember it well.
 By Michael Miller

11/28/2008  2:59PM

Thanks to the detective work of a shareholder (stock broker as well).

If you are tracking trades on that ubiquitous phantom gray market, the source of stock may be from the Bank of the West, which matched some buyers of company shares at prices ranging from a nickel to thirty cents. If this is typical of how fiduciary holders treat the assets of others or even their own, incompetence is ubiquitous permeates the brokerage industry.

I have always encouraged shareholders to take their shares out of street name and will continue to do so. The Bank of the West had 22,500 shares according to its SEC filing in June and zero in its filing in October.

Thanks again, Mister Detective for your curiosity.
 By bluejay

11/14/2008  5:11PM

The following company's provided shares statistics look suspicious:

AngloGold Ashanti

GoldFields

Harmony Gold

Agnico Eagle

Pan American Silver
 By Michael Miller

11/14/2008  3:51PM

Bluejay, The quotes were found on the NYSE at www.nyse.com/about/listed/1cddata.html?ticker. We had to research the company web sites of some on the list. Please tell us any mistakes. As Oliver Wendell Holems proclaimed, "Truth, when not sought after, rarely comes to light."

The entries were listed on 11/12/2008 between 10:30am and 12:20pm. The ones from 2007 also came from the web site.

Page 1 | Page 2 | Page 3 | Page 4 | Page 5 | Page 6 | Page 7 | Page 8 | Page 9 | Page 10 | Page 11 | Page 12 | Page 13 | Page 14 | Page 15 | Page 16 | Page 17 | Page 18 | Page 19 | Page 20 | Page 21 | Page 22 | Page 23 | Page 24 | Page 25 | Page 26 ]

 

  
 
© 2021 Original Sixteen to One Mine, Inc.
PO Box 909
Alleghany, California 95910
 

Phone:   
Fax:
E-mail:
 
(530) 287-3223      
(530) 287-3455
corp@origsix.com
 

      Gold Sales:  


(530) 287-3540

goldsales@origsix.com
 



Design & development by
L. Kenez